BMW/Benz Vs Lexus/Infiniti Debate...

[Zeratul]

I'd first like to start off by saying the only reason im putting this post up is because i couldnt find anywhere better to post since the debate(me and my friend had) is regarding my car(330i '06).

My friend and i were debating the other day why comparable German cars are priced more than luxury Japanese cars. His argument was that for example... 330i and G35 are comparable cars and the only reason BMW prices their cars more is because of its name and nothing more. The technology,reliablity, resale, saftly, etc is almost exactly the same.. the only reason BMW prices theres more is simply because they are BMW. This i told him was not true for BMW's cars are far more sophisticated and reliable hence they last longer and need less repairs + more luxury/sport features.

His source of course to all these accusations is magazines. Car and Driver i believe said in a statistics that Lexus/Infiniti report far less problems then BMW/Mercedes. I refuse to believe this because if bmw/mercedes had problems(serious ones of course) with their cars they would simply go out of business and no one would take them seriously anymore.

Back to my original point. G35 and 330i.. Same quality/technology/reliability... yet 330i is priced thousands more than G35? I refuse to say they are comparable AS cars... But i do believe they ARE comparable when it comes to performance. But then again performance is simply one factor of a car. Any experts at this sort of thing would like to give their 2 cents?

 

[tazza0712]

I'm no expert, but I think the main reliability issues that BMW and Mercedes have are in regard to the wide array of technology they use in their vehicles. It seems, from reading this board and different magazines, that most problems on the newer models have to do with software being updated and computer glitches as opposed to the actual mechanicals of the car failing.

In terms of price, is there a tariff on the cars in the US at all?? Most likely however, I'd say that it is a case of the brand, BMW, simply being able to attract higher money. I'm sure they do it because they know they can, there will always be buyers, the cars are incredibly desireable. Put that next to the case for Infinity, and perhaps there isn't such a high demand for those cars??

I'm not sure as I said, but I thought I'd give it a go!

 

[bmw046series]

Well in reality the three series has been around for nearly 35 years the car evolved into the price, technology and machinery that it is today, the same is true for Mercedes the E-Class, C-Class and the S-Class, and the 5 series and 7 series they all evolved from cars 30 + years prior.

InFin and Lexsux created cars 10 years ago to compete with them, they cut corners and got the cost down all you could really say they are is a Toyota or Dats with a different badge and leather seats.

As far as the resale well BMW just got another award for having the best resale value in the luxury car market, I do think Lexsux and InFin are in the same category. Enough said.

http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/bmwindepth/Difference/value.htm

Performance if you want to try and top out my Bimmer to your Japanese car try me, let me take the silly limiter off first. Born and Breed on the Autobahn.

 

[MrElussive]

BMW uses high quality materials through and through. Infiniti skims on a lot of luxury features and they cut costs as much as possible.

Lexus, on the other hand, straight up builds nice cars for a good value.

G35 vs 330i, there is not the same technology and quality. The 330i's interior blows the G35's interior away in terms of quality of materials and durability. The 330i also offers a few more luxury and technology features than the G35.

I think the G35C is a fantastic car (particularly for the price), but I'm going back to the Germans next time around. They do not skim on quality and they are much more predictable to drive. In terms of performance, the new 330i offers better handling, similar braking, and slightly slower acceleration. Personally, I am not going with a 330i, but I just brought these up for comparison.

 

[sly]

Back to my original point. G35 and 330i.. Same quality/technology/reliability... yet 330i is priced thousands more than G35? I refuse to say they are comparable AS cars... But i do believe they ARE comparable when it comes to performance. But then again performance is simply one factor of a car. Any experts at this sort of thing would like to give their 2 cents?


The interior quality of the G35 coupe has improved significantly in the 05 model year. In terms of reliability, I think you'll find Japanese cars are more reliable than German cars. Lexus is at the top and Infiniti is not that far behind. One of my previous cars was an '02 M3, and I would put it in the same quality class as a GM. I've owned many BMWs over the years, and their quality has deteriorated significantly in the last five years IMO.

I have a G35 coupe that cost me $34K. It has all the options except nav. Go to KBB and check out the resale value of a fully equipped '05 G35 coupe with 3K miles, and you'll find that according to KBB, the G35 holds it's value quite well.

I test drove a 330 and then test drove a G35 coupe, and I didn't see a reason to shell out an additional $10K for the 330.

 

[Zeratul]

No way...

One of my previous cars was an '02 M3, and I would put it in the same quality class as a GM.

Same quality class as a GM? Its an M3... Most importantly its a bimmer! Those M3s are quite solid... I dont see how their level of quality is low?

I test drove a 330 and then test drove a G35 coupe, and I didn't see a reason to shell out an additional $10K for the 330

Of course you don't. Becasue you dont always see what u pay for. Your forgetting all of the passive saftly that you get with the 330, as well as better quality everything. I's rather stick with a company that has been around for 90 years rather than 15 years. It just makes more sence. They seem to know what the hell their doing.

 

[bmw046series]

You just wait I give it Five years a Japanese car quaility will be that of a Ford or GM or maybe Mercedes, it will catch up with them, and they will be no better, their costs are already going up and recent recalls via Toyota have given great forsight in what will happen, you can't make it for ever.

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

I have to say that older japanese cars seem worn and spent, while the older BMWs seem solid... I doubt many people would drive them if there wasn't a money saving incentive to do so. If you're going to drive an old car it might as well be fun.

The G35 does not have the same ride quality and handling as the 330i, neither does it have the same interior quality. I guess polished plastic and pleather along with heated seats that don't work are superior quality.

As for the GM comparison... My 330i has been impeccable when it comes to reliability, not to mention its added bonuses: ride quality, performance, and safety. I guess some people take better care of their cars than others, or you might have gotten a bad M3... it happens I know someone with a bad G35 and another with an RX that doesn't start up every so often.

I think the problem is the snobs who buy these cars are quick to yell POS when an electronic gadget doesn't function 100% perfectly. If you want perfect electronics buy a Lexus and pray its not the 1 in 130?? that has a problem. Notice Japanese cars NEVER experiment with technology they leave the Germans to do that first, then they perfect it or offer it dumbed down, yet more reliable.

A major issue with the 3 series was the GM transmissions, notice GM made them not BMW and these transmissions were not even failing they just needed to warm up before shifting from R into D. So all those who purchased a 3 series around that time were yelling POS when in reality, their cars were perfect with the exception of the transmission... It's all psychological.

 

[Zeratul]

GM Made BMW transmissions? Wow i didnt know BMW would allow GM to do something that drastic to their cars.

 

[MrElussive]

I believe all of the E46 3-Series automatic transmissions were from GM.

 

[Kirby]

Actually, some were GM and some were ZF. BMW is plastered all over the ZF.com website.

 

[sly]

You guys are clueless about Infiniti. First off Infiniti has been around for almost 15 years. The engines they build are second to none in terms of reliability. Over the years I've purchased for myself or my wife the following Infinits: G20, J30 and I30. The G20 was bought in 1994 for $16K. My youngest son now has the car and it has over 250K miles on the odometer. I did a compression test on the four cylinders two months ago, and the readings were nearly identical. The only work other than routine maintenance that I've done on that car was to replace the clutch after 160K miles. My wife sold her J30 after five years and now has a LS 430. My oldest son now has our I30 and it has over 170K miles on the odometer. Same reliability as the G20. Other than normal maintenance items, oil changes, brakes, suspension components etc., the car has been bullet proof.

Now lets look at the German cars that I owned over the last six years: '99 996, '02 M3 and '02 Audi TT. The most reliable by far was the TT. The only problem I had with that car was with the coil packs that were replaced under warranty. The 996 and M3 were disasters. The 996 had to have the rear main seals replaced twice and the transmission was replaced after 12K miles. The Porsche SA told me that if the rear seals leaked again, that they were going to have to replace my engine with a rebuilt one.

My M3's engine blew up after 6K miles. It was in the shop for almost four weeks before they got a new engine for my car. BTW the BMW SA gave me a hard time saying that I must have really driven the car hard to make the engine blow so quickly. Shortly thereafter BMW had a recall on all the '02 M3s because of connecting rod failures. After 10K miles I started to hear loud noises coming from the rear end when I shifted. I do virtually all of my own maintenace and I was certain that there was something seriously wrong with the rear axle. Naturally the BMW SA told me that thumping sound was normal. Then my good ole HK speakers began to rattle and the passenger door panel began to squeak. After about a year and a half the paint began to peel from the wheels. The BMW SA said it wasn't covered under warranty and it was my fault because I must have used something caustic to clean the wheels. Total BS. Anyway there's no way in hell that I would own either a 996 or an M3 that wasn't protected by warranty.

Bottom line is that I form my judgements based on my own experiences and not some BS that I read or some preconceptions that I may have.

 

[bmw046series]

You probably beat the shit out of the M3.

 

[sly]

You probably beat the shit out of the M3.

LOL Are you my old BMW SA? That's always what he told me. Sure I drove my M3 hard. Imagine that. But I would later find out that all of the problems that I experienced were also experienced by many other M3 owners. It wasn't until I started to read various M3 forums that I found out the truth about how common place the problems I had were, because to hear my SA talk, you would think I was the only one who had them.

 

[brahtw8]

You will find that many so-called enthusiasts on this site and the internet at large are ill-informed about anything outside of the brand they drive, to say nothing about the people who are ill-informed about what they drive.

This forum in particular has a small contingent of folks who can't seem to accept that BMW is not the end all and be all of automotive supremacy. bmw046series is just one of the more vocal. Do a search on Honda or NSX if you want more of the same.

There is no question that the overall reliability of japanese cars is superior to german or american cars and has been for some time. Having owned or been in the family with a number of japanese and german vehicles, purchased new and used, in and out of warranty, and having spent 20+ years sucking up all of the automotive information I could, this is beyond debate. Japanese cars used to be cheap and had problems with rust (salt wasn't used on the JDM roads), but this has changed over the past 20 years.

My daily driver is an E46 M3 because it excites me more than a G35C or any other japanese competitor (save the NSX, which I love more than the M3). I traded in an excellent japanese car, the 2004 TL, that served me admirably for 2 years and 45000 miles. The TL was more reliable than the M3 will be, but I accept that because I want the S54 engine, the RWD, the suspension, and the overall intangibles like feel, emotion, etc.

And in response to the comment about the S54 engine failures being the result of misuse, this is patently incorrect. The S54 has an inherent design weakness and experienced some apparent manufacturing problems. The main rod bearing replacement is done on all engines within a specified run, regardless of use.

 

[deutsch100]

Having only owned 2 Japanese cars (a Nissan 300ZX and a Honda Civic EX), my experience is that the first 3/4 years are virtually trouble free. For me, it seemed that as the car aged, everything just fell apart. I know German cars age too, but generally speaking the materials, engine and transmission hold up much longer. Sit inside a 10 year old Maxima, and then sit inside a 10 year old 3 or 5 Series. The BMW still feels solid, and doesn't look too dated.

The problem with ALL German cars is that Germans are not good at Automotive technology. They are master mechanical engineers. Besides from MBZ, BMW builds the best engines, and BMW transmissons are near perfect. A new Japanese car will be less trouble, but like I have said before...almost every Japanese car lacks soul. I do really like the G35, but I think German cars just feel more solid, and have an allure than makes them so great to drive and own. My 2 cents.

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

You guys are clueless about Infiniti. First off Infiniti has been around for almost 15 years. The engines they build are second to none in terms of reliability.

Bottom line is that I form my judgements based on my own experiences and not some BS that I read or some preconceptions that I may have.

Nobody said the Infiniti was a new brand... The engines being second to none in terms of reliability is completely subjective, tell that to my friend with the G35 that has been to shop more times than he has fingers and toes. The heated seats comment was something I personally experienced myself. I never said the Infiniti was a POS or a bad car like you are implying about German cars, I simply said it was cheap and that you were getting what you pay for.

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

This forum in particular has a small contingent of folks who can't seem to accept that BMW is not the end all and be all of automotive supremacy. bmw046series is just one of the more vocal. Do a search on Honda or NSX if you want more of the same.

There is no question that the overall reliability of japanese cars is superior to german or american cars and has been for some time.

The TL was more reliable than the M3 will be...

Well theres only about 20 or so "regulars" on this forum, so I'm gonna call you out on that first comment. Who cannot accept that BMW is not the end all of automotive superiority? Besides the one person you mentioned, I don't think anyone here hates japanese luxury cars.

The second comment you make is too much of a blanket statement to be valid, it might be valid under a different phrasing such as "overall japanese cars tend to have fewer problems per model than german or american cars" but you cannot throw in a statement like yours since it implies that any given japanese car will overall be mechanically superior to any given american or german car, all the way down to individual models. In the interest of accuracy lets not misinform the forum.

The last statement is unintelligible at best and contradicts itself. How can something be more reliable than something will be? I wouldn't wanna be your M3 if you were putting such a jinx on me. Seems like you want it to break down...

Overall, my point is that this is a BMW forum and I don't see the point in telling everyone coming here looking for info on BMW that BMW is an unreliable POS and if you want reliability to go to a japanese brand... When chances are your BMW will be problem free, and chances are your Japanese luxury brand will be problem free as well. You do realize the Acura RL was dumped from consumer reports reliability list because of its problems... Ironically thats also the most powerful mainstream Honda engine today, seems like building performance cars has a distinct effect on reliability...

In the end it all boils down to individual brand preference and what you're willing to pay. If it's worth a 10k premium for intangibles and better handling, then they can buy the car, if not then they can buy the copy-cat competitor (not to imply inferiority in any way).

 

[MrElussive]

You guys are forgetting one thing, though.

When a BMW or Mercedes vehicle has a problem, the dealership always knows how to fix the issue immediately. My mom's S500 was having problems with the COMAND navigation system. They replaced the entire unit in a matter of 5 days, including one week-end day! When my G35C's driver-side window motor crapped out on me, it took my dealership 4 weeks just to get a new window motor in...unbelievable! When I had the rear axle clicking first happening around 22,000 miles, it took them until 26,000 miles (about 4 months) just to get the parts in. They finally fixed it on my last oil change.
I have had (and still do have) numerous minor problems with my vehicle and it always seems like rocket science for Infiniti dealerships to get the parts in and find the TSB on how to fix the issue. One thing I have learned is that all cars have problems, but I'd rather have a car from a copmany who knows how to deal with the problems within a decade!

 

[bmw046series]

I don't think anyone here hates japanese luxury cars.

Ha I do, but seriously I think its because they have a soul, typically prettier and just seem to handle better, I'm German I should be biased but I love Porsche as well, wouldn't buy one but ever variant of the 911 is perfection. Audi builds very good cars again I wouldn’t buy one because they are ugly, there are lots of great cars out their, BMW for example.

Look at it this way your going on a picnic you want the Germans to build the basket so the handles don't fall off, you don't want them to make the food, but your know you'll know what to expect and it will be exciting because you know you'll have beer thats what they do, and the Autobahn is a hell of a test for a car.

But the other bits everyone else is better the i-Drive takes a masters degree but ok Japanese cars are reliable to an extent but they just aren't exciting. That is what makes European cars better, what would you rather have that new Lexus supercar or a Ferrari? Hmmm? Would I rather sleep with Barbara Streisand or Angelina Jolie?

Check this out…

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...3/OPINION03/511230428&SearchID=73227359521740

Contrary to popular biased reports BMW does outsell Lexus in the US.

A Piece…
"For all its integrity, Lexus isn't an icon for younger buyers, it doesn't have the same street level appeal of BMW and Audi,"

The same is true in Germany for young people Mercedes is not the car to own as it once was, (its grandpa’s car), They buy BMWs, and Audis.