The fate of the US soldiers who abused Iraqi prisoners?
- Thread starter James
- Start date
It's important to note here in that culture, being seen naked infront of another man is extreme humiliation, let alone being slumped on top of him. The acts were calculated to have this effect so while they mightn't appear as ghastly as what you can imagine, they are devastating to some cultures.
Just pointing it out. I didn't know this til I read it in an article on the weekend.
Just pointing it out. I didn't know this til I read it in an article on the weekend.
![[:)]](/images/smilies/smile.png "Smile [:)]")
Damn media!
i think the involved people should be shunned/punished, all this stuff and worse has happened in other wars, you can just blame technology for bringing it so graphically to our desktops.
if there were digital cameras and the internet during WW1 & 2 i'm sure there would be excuses to not being involed in those wars as well.
if there were digital cameras and the internet during WW1 & 2 i'm sure there would be excuses to not being involed in those wars as well.
I respectfully disagree. We had every right to know what Clinton and Lewinski were doing under the circumstances. Was it truly private? I don’t think so by nature of the place and time, just like it would not be completely private without consequences for any of us on the job.
Clinton was out of line entirely and deserved no protection; furthermore, there was a survey of executives in the US concluded that a majority of executives would have lost their job had they done the same within their corporate walls.
These are the most public of people and represent us and are therefore subject to a higher standard and greater scrutiny.
We as voters are then challenged to formulate our opinions and prioritize attributes to select the person we believe MOST qualified to be president in light of their actions.
Do you really have the right? Behind closed doors? A private act? Is it really any of your business and does it effect the way Clinton handled his job? Did he do it out on the front lawn? NO!
If it was never released, would it have made a difference in the way he handled his job? Would it have made him a less effective leader if we never found out about it? He does live at the White House, so technically, it was his home.
His infidelity was a very poor act. It's not like we didn't know that Clinton was a womanizer, before he was elected there were several reports and accusations.
I never voted for Clinton, but I felt sorry for him.
If it was never released, would it have made a difference in the way he handled his job? Would it have made him a less effective leader if we never found out about it? He does live at the White House, so technically, it was his home.
His infidelity was a very poor act. It's not like we didn't know that Clinton was a womanizer, before he was elected there were several reports and accusations.
I never voted for Clinton, but I felt sorry for him.
Sorry mate, but that is just not right. What is "right for the country" is for people who break the law to be brought to justice. You shouldn't hide criminal acts like torture, deriliction of duty etc just because it embarasses the country (or for any other reason).
I read in an article yesterday that there is now pressure on our Prime Minister (who has so far distanced himself from this) to pull our Australian troops out to show that what has happened goes far beyond what we tolerate.
I read in an article yesterday that there is now pressure on our Prime Minister (who has so far distanced himself from this) to pull our Australian troops out to show that what has happened goes far beyond what we tolerate.
I agree, when you are continuously trying to hide issues it becomes a vicious circle of lies and deception while trying to hide the facts, and I believe it will get them in the end anyway. It’s just not right.
The problem we are going to face here in the US is exactly what you are taking about. Elections around the world are going to be based upon the support of the US; citizens are going to remove from office any leader that shows support for US lead actions.
This is bad for us here because we are an aging population that is also going to experience far fewer people paying into the system that we have had in the past (6-7 pay for 1 retired moving towards 2 retired for every 1 worker), creating financial difficulties as well as logistical difficulties of going it alone in the future.
The problem we are going to face here in the US is exactly what you are taking about. Elections around the world are going to be based upon the support of the US; citizens are going to remove from office any leader that shows support for US lead actions.
This is bad for us here because we are an aging population that is also going to experience far fewer people paying into the system that we have had in the past (6-7 pay for 1 retired moving towards 2 retired for every 1 worker), creating financial difficulties as well as logistical difficulties of going it alone in the future.
Where did you get that I said the soldiers should not be punished? I never said that the soldiers should not be punished. I just said some things should be kept from the public eye. I don't think what they did is right. I don't think it was that bad either.
Here you prove my point.
And again.
What a few people did does not reflect our population as a whole. Now we look worse than we really are and a few soldiers have caused a much larger problem than the problem really was. The acts were blown out of proportion and the US "trust" is damaged. Now what would have been better for our country? The soldiers to be "quietly punished" and for the world not to know about it? I think so.
Here you prove my point.
And again.
What a few people did does not reflect our population as a whole. Now we look worse than we really are and a few soldiers have caused a much larger problem than the problem really was. The acts were blown out of proportion and the US "trust" is damaged. Now what would have been better for our country? The soldiers to be "quietly punished" and for the world not to know about it? I think so.
I take your point, I understand that you are not saying this is right.
But why should the public not know? To protect them? To prevent any international embarrassment? I believe it's better to know the truth.
These acts have not been blown out of proportion. The crimes committed contradict one of the reasons that America is there, ie. to liberate a nation from the torturous and dictatorial tyranny of Sadam Hussein. By employing illegal torture and similar tactics as that ruler to elicit information sickens me.
Don't worry, the international community know that these losers aren't representative of the American people.
But why should the public not know? To protect them? To prevent any international embarrassment? I believe it's better to know the truth.
These acts have not been blown out of proportion. The crimes committed contradict one of the reasons that America is there, ie. to liberate a nation from the torturous and dictatorial tyranny of Sadam Hussein. By employing illegal torture and similar tactics as that ruler to elicit information sickens me.
Don't worry, the international community know that these losers aren't representative of the American people.
I would have thought what makes us quintessentially American is our transparent government, free media, and rule of law that brings wrong doers to justice. I personally still believe in American exceptionalism. We are not a country of apologists (who argue our enemies do the same to us, it's the medias fault, our torture is mild, it's not that bad, boys will be boys, a few bad apples, Sadam was worse, we should be more concerned for Jessica). What a bunch of garbage.
![[thumb]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_thumb.gif "Thumbs Up [thumb]"){kind=icon}
How did I miss this post! Hey, ![[wave]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_wave.gif "Wave [wave]")
I'm one of those staunch, far out, fierce…moderates. The only thing that sucks is we need to use our minds to vote and sometimes it gives me a headache. This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a 540 at San Diego State last week “Vote Republican, Its Easier Than Thinking.” How true is that!!!! ![[rofl]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_rofl.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I'm one of those staunch, far out, fierce…moderates. The only thing that sucks is we need to use our minds to vote and sometimes it gives me a headache. This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw on a 540 at San Diego State last week “Vote Republican, Its Easier Than Thinking.” How true is that!!!!
I have sat back and read your constant bashing of Republicans, while you constantly ignore facts of this thread. Your ignorance to the reality of the world is amazing.
Look what has happened to this country as a result of the media reporting this story:
And with your own words:
Not only are we having a extremely difficult time in Iraq, the report of this story has made it worse, and costing more American lives because the Iraqi people have seen what a few bad apples have done. Many are only looking for an excuse. The fact of the matter is that we are in Iraq, if we withdrawal now, Iraq will be worse off than if Saddam was in power. I am not saying that these soldiers shouldn't be punished, but it did not, for the sake of our soldiers, have to be made public. The media is not and should not be all powerful. In times of war there should be some censorship. If there wasn't than it could cost more American lives. Hell, just ship Geraldo there and let him report anything he wants.
Look what has happened to this country as a result of the media reporting this story:
And with your own words:
Not only are we having a extremely difficult time in Iraq, the report of this story has made it worse, and costing more American lives because the Iraqi people have seen what a few bad apples have done. Many are only looking for an excuse. The fact of the matter is that we are in Iraq, if we withdrawal now, Iraq will be worse off than if Saddam was in power. I am not saying that these soldiers shouldn't be punished, but it did not, for the sake of our soldiers, have to be made public. The media is not and should not be all powerful. In times of war there should be some censorship. If there wasn't than it could cost more American lives. Hell, just ship Geraldo there and let him report anything he wants.
Here's something I came across when trying to find out exactly where my friend was. It was published before all this hoopla over the prisons came about. Just give it a read.
"Hello Everyone, I am taking time to ask you all for your help.
First off, I'd like to say that this is not a political message. I'm not concerned about domestic politics right now. We have much bigger things to deal with, and we need your help.
It seems that despite the tremendous and heroic efforts of the men and women serving here in Iraq to bring much needed peace and stability to this region, we are losing the war of perception with the media and American people. Our enemy has learned that the key to defeating the mighty American military is by swaying public opinion at home and abroad. We are a people that cherish the democratic system of government and therefore hold the will of the people in the highest regard. We love to criticize ourselves almost to an endless degree, because we care what others think. Our enemies see this as a weakness and are trying to exploit it.
When we ask ourselves questions like, "Why do they hate us?" or "What did we do wrong?" we are playing into our enemies' hands. Our natural tendency to question ourselves is being used against us to undermine our effort to do good in the world. How far would we have gotten if after the surprise attacks on December 7, 1941 at Pearl Harbor, we would have asked, "Why do the Japanese hate us so much?" or "How can we change ourselves so that they won't do that again?" Here in Iraq the enemy is trying very hard to portray our efforts as failing and fruitless. They kill innocents and desecrate their bodies in hopes that the people back home will lose the will to fight for liberty. They are betting on our perceived weakness as a thoughtful, considerate people. Unfortunately our media only serves to further their cause.
In an industry that feeds on ratings and bad news, a failure in Iraq would be a goldmine. When our so-called "trusted" American media takes a quote from an Iraqi doctor as the gospel truth over that of the men and women that are daily fighting to protect the right to freedom of press, you know something is wrong. That doctor claimed that out of 600 Iraqis, that were casualties of the fighting, the vast majority of them were women, children and the elderly. This is totally absurd. In the history of man, no one has spent more time and effort, often to the detriment of our own mission, to be more discriminate in our targeting of the enemy than the American military. The Marines and Soldiers serving in Iraq have gone through extensive training in order to limit the amount of innocent casualties and collateral damage.
Yet, despite all of this, our media consistently sides with those who openly lie and directly challenge the honor of our brave heroes fighting for liberty and peace. What we have to remember is that peace is not defined as an absence of war. It is the presence of liberty, stability, and prosperity. In the face of the horrendous tyranny of the former Iraqi regime, the only way true peace was able to come to this region was through force. That is what the American Revolution was all about. Have we forgotten? Freedom is not free and "peace" without principle is not peace. The peace that so-called "peace advocates" support can only be brought to Iraq through the military. And we are doing it, if only the world will let us! If the American people believe we are failing, even if we are not, then we will ultimately fail.
That is why I am asking for your support. Become a voice of truth in your community. Wherever you are fight the lies of the enemy. Don't buy into the pessimism and apathy that says, "It's hopeless," "They hate us too much," "That part of the world is just too messed up," "It's our fault anyway," "We're to blame," and so forth. Whether you're in middle school, working at a 9-5 job, retired, or a stay-at-home mom you can make a huge difference! There is nothing more powerful than the truth. So, when you watch the news and see doomsday predictions and spiteful opinions on our efforts over here, you can refute them by knowing that we are doing a tremendous amount of good. Spread the word. No one is poised to make such an amazing contribution to the everyday lives of Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world than the American Armed Forces. By making this a place where liberty can finally grow, we are making the whole world safer. Your efforts at home are directly tied to our success. You are the soldiers at home fighting the war of perception. So I'm asking you as a fellow fighting man: Do your duty. Stop the attempts of the enemy wherever you are. You are a mighty force for good, because truth is on your side. Together we will win this fight and ensure a better world for the future.
God Bless and Semper Fidelis, 1st Lt. Robert L. Nofsinger USMC Ramadi, Iraq"
"Hello Everyone, I am taking time to ask you all for your help.
First off, I'd like to say that this is not a political message. I'm not concerned about domestic politics right now. We have much bigger things to deal with, and we need your help.
It seems that despite the tremendous and heroic efforts of the men and women serving here in Iraq to bring much needed peace and stability to this region, we are losing the war of perception with the media and American people. Our enemy has learned that the key to defeating the mighty American military is by swaying public opinion at home and abroad. We are a people that cherish the democratic system of government and therefore hold the will of the people in the highest regard. We love to criticize ourselves almost to an endless degree, because we care what others think. Our enemies see this as a weakness and are trying to exploit it.
When we ask ourselves questions like, "Why do they hate us?" or "What did we do wrong?" we are playing into our enemies' hands. Our natural tendency to question ourselves is being used against us to undermine our effort to do good in the world. How far would we have gotten if after the surprise attacks on December 7, 1941 at Pearl Harbor, we would have asked, "Why do the Japanese hate us so much?" or "How can we change ourselves so that they won't do that again?" Here in Iraq the enemy is trying very hard to portray our efforts as failing and fruitless. They kill innocents and desecrate their bodies in hopes that the people back home will lose the will to fight for liberty. They are betting on our perceived weakness as a thoughtful, considerate people. Unfortunately our media only serves to further their cause.
In an industry that feeds on ratings and bad news, a failure in Iraq would be a goldmine. When our so-called "trusted" American media takes a quote from an Iraqi doctor as the gospel truth over that of the men and women that are daily fighting to protect the right to freedom of press, you know something is wrong. That doctor claimed that out of 600 Iraqis, that were casualties of the fighting, the vast majority of them were women, children and the elderly. This is totally absurd. In the history of man, no one has spent more time and effort, often to the detriment of our own mission, to be more discriminate in our targeting of the enemy than the American military. The Marines and Soldiers serving in Iraq have gone through extensive training in order to limit the amount of innocent casualties and collateral damage.
Yet, despite all of this, our media consistently sides with those who openly lie and directly challenge the honor of our brave heroes fighting for liberty and peace. What we have to remember is that peace is not defined as an absence of war. It is the presence of liberty, stability, and prosperity. In the face of the horrendous tyranny of the former Iraqi regime, the only way true peace was able to come to this region was through force. That is what the American Revolution was all about. Have we forgotten? Freedom is not free and "peace" without principle is not peace. The peace that so-called "peace advocates" support can only be brought to Iraq through the military. And we are doing it, if only the world will let us! If the American people believe we are failing, even if we are not, then we will ultimately fail.
That is why I am asking for your support. Become a voice of truth in your community. Wherever you are fight the lies of the enemy. Don't buy into the pessimism and apathy that says, "It's hopeless," "They hate us too much," "That part of the world is just too messed up," "It's our fault anyway," "We're to blame," and so forth. Whether you're in middle school, working at a 9-5 job, retired, or a stay-at-home mom you can make a huge difference! There is nothing more powerful than the truth. So, when you watch the news and see doomsday predictions and spiteful opinions on our efforts over here, you can refute them by knowing that we are doing a tremendous amount of good. Spread the word. No one is poised to make such an amazing contribution to the everyday lives of Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world than the American Armed Forces. By making this a place where liberty can finally grow, we are making the whole world safer. Your efforts at home are directly tied to our success. You are the soldiers at home fighting the war of perception. So I'm asking you as a fellow fighting man: Do your duty. Stop the attempts of the enemy wherever you are. You are a mighty force for good, because truth is on your side. Together we will win this fight and ensure a better world for the future.
God Bless and Semper Fidelis, 1st Lt. Robert L. Nofsinger USMC Ramadi, Iraq"